Germanic, (P)IE elements in/as influence of Eldarin

This is a continuation of this old thread, to collect possible Germanic and/or (Proto)-Indo-European elements and their influences on Tolkien's Eldarin languages.

Aran's article on this topic is highly recommended as a starter: it can be read here.

My first addition is

English tow "pull with a rope", OE togian, PIE deuk-: PQ TUK-, Q tuc-

‹ Tantare (another Fib) Earendel ›
Submitted by Atwe on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 13:38
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Comments

1

Atwe:

I think this has not been mentioned yet:

†gast v. archaic English verb 'terrify, frighten, alarm, scare'; related to aghast, ghastly, ghost etc., Old English gǽstan (only once) < Old Germanic type *gaistjan , apparently cognate with Gothic usgaisjan to terrify, usgeisnan to be terrified.

Cf. Etymologies

GÁYAS- fear. *gais-: Q aista to dread; ON gaia dread; N gae. *gaisrā: ON gœ¯sra, gērrha; N gaer dreadful.

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Vanesse ale mí óre tirno, ve lóte.

04/16/2012 - 10:04
2

admin:

Tangential, but still:

MBAKH 'exchange' and derivates, Q manka- etc.

vs.

E monger

O.E. mangere, from P.Gmc. mangojan (cf. O.S. mangon, O.N. manga), from L. mango (gen. mangonis) "dealer, trader," from a noun derivative of Gk. manganon "contrivance, means of enchantment," from PIE base *mang- "to embellish, dress, trim." Used in comb. form in Eng. since at least 12c.; since 16c. chiefly with overtones of petty and disreputable. The modern verb is first recorded 1928, from the noun (but there was a verb form in O.E.).

10/06/2008 - 08:23
3

oreramar:

Quenya : pá, pa prep. "on" with reference to contact of surfaces

1121, from up + on, probably influenced by O.N. upp a. Distinct from O.E. uppan which merely meant "up."
In the mod. Scand. tongues, except Icelandic and Færöese, the reduced form pa, paa, corresponding to Eng. (colloq. or dial.) 'pon, 'po', has displaced the simple prep. å, aa = on. [OED]
(from Etymonline)

09/17/2008 - 20:36
4

Tyrhael:

early Noldorin _cunnas_ "dragon's lair" in PE13:141
Latin _cunnus_ ...

... On second thought, I'm disavowing this post. It will self-destruct in five seconds.

08/14/2008 - 02:44
5

admin:

I feel you are talking from personal experience there:)

You can also add Gnomish _cuch_ to the list IIRC.

08/14/2008 - 08:44
6

Tyrhael:

Heh.

Regarding Gn. _**cuch_, I was unable to find it - all I'm aware of are the words in h- found in PE13:(147,163) as cognates of QL's PU(HU). I _thought_ there was some pattern where certain words with primitive p- form h- in PE13's Noldorin, but can't remember it or if it happens in GL also; I didn't know where to look in Aran's article, if that covers it.

08/15/2008 - 20:45
7

Atwe:

Well. How do you say dementia senilis in Quenya?1.
Of course it's _huch_, not **cuch, and EN, not G. Now I go and bury myself in the garden and promise never state anything without checking the sources first.

  1. 1. *sámaquelie linyenwa perhaps...

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Vanesse ale mí óre tirno, ve lóte.

08/18/2008 - 07:41
8

Aran:

Initial p- > *ph- > h- is regular in Early Noldorin, but not before or after. One can even say quite precisely that the differentiation must have happened still during the time in Valinor, since Telerin págas, págant are adapted without a change of p-. I put it under initial developments.

What's interesting is that the actual Noldorin word for 'cunnus' is mentioned just a few more pages ahead. And with all the puns in the early writings this might actually have been an intended one, who knows..

08/16/2008 - 13:21
9

admin:

I believe this has not been mentioned yet:

Compare (from Etym):

Quote:

WED- bind. *wedā: ON weda bond, N gweð; Ilk. gweð. N gwedi, pa.t. gwend, gwenn later gweðant, bind. N angweð ‘iron-bond’, chain. *wœ?dē bond, troth, compact, oath: Q vēre; ON waide, N gwaeð. *wed-tā: Q vesta- swear (to do something), contract, make a compact; vesta contract; vestale oath. N gwest oath; gwesto to swear; gowest contract, compact, treaty, Q ovesta [WŌ˘]. [The Q words derived from *wed-tā were struck out in pencil, with the note that they ‘all fell with derivatives of BES’ . These same words, with different meaning, are found under BES: vesta matrimony, vesta- to wed; vestale wedding. The reference in the original here is to BES (not as previously to BED: see note to LEP).

with (from EtymOnline):

Quote:

wed O.E. weddian "to pledge, covenant to do something, marry," from P.Gmc. *wadjojanan (cf. O.N. veðja "to bet, wager," O.Fris. weddia "to promise," Goth. ga-wadjon "to betroth"), from PIE base *wadh- "to pledge, to redeem a pledge" (cf. L. vas, gen. vadis "bail, security," Lith. vaduoti "to redeem a pledge"). Sense remained "pledge" in other Gmc. languages (cf. Ger. Wette "bet, wager"); development to "marry" is unique to Eng.

further reference:

Germanic etymology

07/10/2008 - 10:31
10

oreramar:

Would it not be convenient to have an alphabetical list at the beginning of this thread of the words already discussed. I find it a bit complicated to check each time in the old thread and it will be even more complicated once we shall have a lot of words. What do you think?

06/09/2008 - 20:04
11

admin:

Right, I will do that, but for the words discussed by ran you'll still have to make the journey to his place ;-)

06/09/2008 - 21:48
12

oreramar:

hwarin adj. "crooked" (SKWAR)
Ir. cûar
Br. gwar
Lat. vârus

06/09/2008 - 19:52
13

oreramar:

PHAN- fanar
1225, fantesme, from O.Fr. fantasme, from L. phantasma "an apparition, specter," from Gk. phantasma "image, phantom," from phantazein "to make visible, display," from stem of phainein "to show," from PIE base *bha- "to shine" (cf. Skt. bhati "shines, glitters," O.Ir. ban "white, light, ray of light"). Spelling conformed to L. from 16c.

06/09/2008 - 19:49
14

Atwe:

Q _palpa-_ "beat, batter" : E palpitation L _palpitare_ "to throb, to flutter", freq. of _palpare_ "touch gently, stroke"

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Vanesse ale mí óre tirno, ve lóte.

06/08/2008 - 19:57
15

Aran:

What about these:

PIE *k(ʷ)Ar(ǝ)- > Sanskrit karóti `to do, make', kāra- `making, doing', m. `act, action'; kárman- n. `act, action, performance' (from here)
Cf. Elvish KAR-

PIE *ar(y)- > Sanskrit árya-, aryá m. `master, lord', ārya- `Arian' (here)
Cf. Elvish ARI/ARAN/ARAT 'good, excellent, noble [...] excels, without necessarily implying that others are bad or marred' (PE17:147), Q. arya 'excelling'

PIE *pel- > Sanskrit pūr f. `rampart, wall, fortress, city', pura- n., puri-, purī f. `fortress, town' (as in 'Singapore'), Greek póli-s (here)
Cf. Elvish PEL(ES)-

06/03/2008 - 20:50
16

admin:

Yes, they are quite convincing - good finds!

06/04/2008 - 09:03