Vinya Túvie Pá Kemet

Vinya Túvie Pá Kemet


Minaþurindor kenasta utúvier i lé yanen i Alte *Piramissi1 Kemetse2 ner ampanaine.

Utúvienyente ampende ó tyeller ar lattar samnain ara piramis, ha tana sa i karindor yuhtaner te luke i haure ondor3 amba i pende ta sattaner te or i exe.

Eke len henta ambe pá i túvie sis:

Submitted by Shihali Sat, 11/10/2018 - 18:20

NQNT needs to talk about Egypt so it used Mirrandor as a blend of Hebrew mitzrayim (also Arabic miṣr without the dual suffix) and Quenya -ndor, -nóre.

If we use km.t I'd prefer a more authentic form. Coptic uses /ke:mə/ = [kʰe:mə], which Loprieno claims was /ku:mat/ in Middle Egyptian before a /u:/ -> /e:/ sound shift. So Cén, Cém- or Céme based on Coptic, or Cúmat based on Middle Egyptian.

For pyramid, I'd prefer something based on the oblique stem pyramid- instead of the nominative form pyramis like most European languages except Hungarian. Maybe píramit with a stem píramít- due to rhythmic lengthening? Píramíti?

Submitted by Atwe Mon, 11/12/2018 - 16:13

I do not have a vested interest in having the Hungarian form as the basis (despite being a native:P) so I am fine with píramit; píramít- as a stem feels a bit weird though, perhaps a duplication instead, i.e. píramitt-?

As for the name of Egypt, it's a tough question - what should be the base of the loanword? If we want to imitate RL languages we should probably adapt Egypt to Q phonology rather than go for a by now obscure historic name. On the other hand, normal loanword mechanisms hardly apply in the very special case of NeoEldarin (with the exception of internal loanwords of course).

Submitted by Shihali Tue, 11/13/2018 - 05:32

In reply to by Atwe

The "correct" form would be píramit, píramit-. I thought it would immediately become píramít- due to the word being three short syllables with a vowel ending added, but píramitessen and such wouldn't need a lengthened vowel. Píramit- felt like an odd pattern. I think a case could also be made for píramis, píramir- (from píramid-).

So far I've seen at least three conflicting ideas for placenames in Neo-Eldarin:

  1. Don't borrow if you can avoid it; translate instead, as in the King's Letter.
  2. Borrow from the most relevant language today, which could still be Biblical Hebrew for places from Biblical times. Helge primarily derived Mirra "Egyptian" from Arabic Miṣr, which wouldn't have been used by Egyptians in Biblical times.
  3. Borrow from a very old form, as Kemet tried to do. This or translation would have happened if Eldarin languages had remained in use from prehistoric times on.

I see #2 most often in other conlangs, but I'm most familiar with auxlangs that have no reason to use anything other than modern forms and space-fantasy languages that first learn about Earth in the near future. #3 seems most consistent with general loanword logic but yields some strange forms like Cúmat for Egypt or Tungurá (中華) for China.

Submitted by Atwe Tue, 11/13/2018 - 08:52

In reply to by Shihali

I don't think those three methods are necessarily conflicting, or mutually exclusive, more like complementary. If I think of how foreign place-names are treated in Hungarian, for instance, for some we have our own names that are totally different from how the locals call them, some names have been adapted to fit Hungarian phonology, and some are simply adopted as-is.