Lay of Turin - Next Installment

Submitted by Andrew Higgins on Thu, 2007-06-14 17:58.

Here's the next installment with some clean up on part one. Thanks for all the help. Is this making sense? Need to figure out how to do accents. Running to the opera tonight! Some grammer questions for upcoming passages which I will post to the forge later. Thanks, Andy

Turin ion Hurin a Glorund i amlug

Ai! I amlug vallen e-Balan udun
i fuin in-eryn ardhon si pellenin
i naeth Edain a nir in Edhil
thinniel hethu dad vaid glad
si naro a i eneth annid
Niniel naer a i eneth annur
Turin ion Thalion orthornen na amarth.
Nae! Hurin Thalion vi i chyth auth orthornen
ir in gwaith fainchemmin en-Edhelrim
noner horn pain an ngurth na i dhelu naer en-Vorgoth
Parth dan esta aen na i'waith esta Nirnaeth Arnediad
Ennas i chin edain, erain a maethor, dregennir
u-vaethanner dan in gwaith en-Edhelrim
na ugerth gwerianner
u-dhan to adan Thalion-Erithamrod
a maethor din beren

Turin son of Hurin and Glorund the Dragon

Lo! the golden dragon of the God of Hell
the gloom of the woods of the world now gone
the woes of man and weeping of Elves
fading faintly down forest pathways
is now to tell and the name most tearful
of Niniel the sorrowful and the name most sad
of Thalion's son Turin o'erthrown by fate.

Lo! Hurin Thalion in the hosts of war
was whelmed, what time in the white clad armies
of Elfinesse were all to ruin by the dread hate driven
of Delu-Morgoth
That field is by the folk named
Ninin Unothradin, Unnumbered Tears
There the children of Men chieftan and warriors
fled and faught not but the folk of the Elves they betrayed with treason
save that true man only Thalion Erithamrod and his thanes renowned*

*note I have taken the line from the second version of the poem - first version is "thane-like gods"

.

Submitted by Andrew Higgins on Fri, 2007-06-15 21:59.

Thanks for comments - did some more work on this first part and now have as follows:

Turin ion Hurin a Glorund i amlug

Alae! I amlug vallen e-Balan udun
i vaur en-eryn ardhon si pellen
i naeth Edain a nir in Edhil
thinniel hethu dad vaid glad
si naro ah i eneth annid
Niniel naer ah i eneth annur
Turin ion Thalion orthornen na amarth.
Nae! Hurin Thalion vi i hyth en auth orthornen
ir in gwaith fainhemmin in Edhelrim
gwathannen pain an gurth na dhelos uanui Delu-Morgoth
Parth dan esta Nirnaeth Arnediad estar aen na'waith
Ennas i chin in edain, erain a maethor, dregenner
u-vaethanner dan hain gwerianner na ugerth gwaith in Edhelrim
unan adan Thalion-Erithamrod
a conin din beren

Submitted by Ninniach on Fri, 2007-06-15 12:32.

First of all I would like to suggest you keep the instalments separately, e.g. don't merge the amended ones with the new ones. This way we can go back to whichever instalment and comment them separately without having to go through the whole text again.

My comments on the first instalment (alas, I have to take them one by one, there's also work to do):
- Ai: my guess would be that Lo! here has the meaning of Behold! rather than alas, so I would suggest using alae as in "Alae! Ered en Echoriath, ered e·mbar nín!". Having said that, ai, nae can be used as well where appropriate.
- fuin: I like maur better, it sounds more "gloomy" to my ears:)
- eryn: Cerebrum, Dragonflame suggests that it is a plural noun used as a singular, so it might be en-eryn after all - I have to think about this;
- pellenin: it shoud remain sg. because it is referring to ardhon and not eryn

To be continued, a big pile of documents just landed on my desk...

Submitted by cerebrum on Fri, 2007-06-15 11:27.

1. line: vi hyth en-auth (it is advisable to use the genitival article before common names)
2. line: *fainhemmin, not *fainchemmin, cf. Duinhir
2. line: in-Edhelrim (edhelrim is a plural noun)
3. line: noner???
3. line: an gurth ('g' in gurth represents a former nasalised stop 'ñg', so the nasal-mutated form of this sound will be 'g', not 'ng', cf. Annon-in-Gelydh)
3. line: I would rather translate 'by the dread hate ... of Delu-Morgoth' as na dhelos uanui Delu-Morgoth
4. line: my suggestion instead of esta aen na i'waith esta Nirnaeth Arnediad is Nirnaeth Arnediad estar aen (or just estannen) na ‘waith
5. line: i chîn in-edain (you have to use the genitival article before common names)
5. line: dreganner, not dregennir
6. and 7. lines: gwerianner hain (I think it is necessary to use the pronoun hain 'they' here) and in-Edhelrim again; morover, pay attention to the word order; the subject (hain) and the verb (gwerianner) come first, and the object (in gwaith in-Edhelrim) follows them (in gwaith in-Edhelrim ... gwerianner hain is easily misunderstood, it can mean 'the folk of the Elves ... betrayed them').
8. line: what is to???

Submitted by Atwe on Fri, 2007-06-15 09:05.

"Thane' comes from OE _Þegn_, see thane. From the gloss given I think that in Eldarin the root KAN- comes closest, especially Qe cáno. The S cognate _caun_ maybe?

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sí tere hyelle ar nullave cenilve

Submitted by Tyrhael on Fri, 2007-06-15 08:49.

The only change I can think of at the moment is that (like I said on your blog) _u-dhan_ would become _u-nan_ because _dan_ comes from a root beginning in ND. ;)

Oh, and as for accents, if you don't know the alt codes, you can copy-paste them from this link: http://www.coloryourprofyle.com/phade/alt.html

Additionally, if you need ones with macrons (or Y with circumflex), I find this page helpful: http://www.issociate.de/idndetails.php

Cheers!

Submitted by Arthinherin on Thu, 2007-06-21 12:21.

Hi!

Yet another site about alt codes here: http://www.conlanger.com/signs.html

Cheers!

Submitted by Atwe on Fri, 2007-06-15 09:31.

If you use Mozilla Firefox as your browser (which I'd heartily recommend anyway) you could use an extension like abcTajpu or Zombie Keys to enter the characters via a right-click menu, or by special key-combinations.

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sí tere hyelle ar nullave cenilve

Submitted by Arthinherin on Thu, 2007-06-14 18:36.

Well, I'm not an expert in Sindarin, but if I'm not wrong the conjunction _a_ becomes _ah_ before vowels...

Cheers!

Submitted by Ninniach on Sat, 2007-06-16 19:29.

There's been a debate on whether _ah_ should be rendered as "and" (a, ar becoming ah before a vowel) or as "with", but with a, ar and ah being etymologically related my guess is that we could safely use it as "and" before words starting with a vowel.

Submitted by Arthinherin on Sat, 2007-06-16 21:26.

There is a draft on VT43:30 (at least on my home-made version, printed from a sample PDF) that says:

Quote:
In some very late notes (c. 1968), Tolkien gives a Common Eldarin form _as_ 'and' and its Sindarin reflex _ah_, realized as _a_ before consonants (...). In the current Quenya example, _as-_ 'with' may be a prepositional reflex of CE _as_ and related to the Quenya conjunction _ar_ 'and'.

(The draft refers to the word _aselye_ "with thee" found in a version of _Aia María_)

When I replied to Andy's post, I took this as a reference point.

Cheers!

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