Turin and Glorund the Dragon - Lines 18 - 22

Submitted by Andrew Higgins on Sun, 2007-06-17 22:03.

Here is the next part of my attempt at translation - I will post these in small chunks and then post questions to the Forge about questions that are coming up. I am finding the etymologies a treasure trove of info to be gleened when looking for a word that is not currently evident in the corpus. Thanks to all for their comments and help.

Turin (Lines 18-22)

Ennas in orc-hoth, in roeg in emyn, orthorir
den anethen vi nagor goeol ornanassen na Vauglir
gwenner den cuin
ah achatanner i anthalion in conin edain

There in host on host the hell fiend orcs
overbore him at last in that battle terrible
by the bidding of Bauglir
bound him living
and pulled dowen the proudest of the princes of men

Notes:

"host on host" was originally going to render this as _glamhoth bo 'lamhoth_which seemed clunky thought best way was to say a horde of orcs.

_anethen_ - dervied from an (adverb prefix) + methen (final, last)

_oranassen_ - "having been bidded by" dervied from CE: stem HOR (urge, impel) cited in VT 41:17 - impel with mind which is what Morgoth may have done with orcs

_achatanner_ - "pulled down" - passed on suggestion taking from CE root SKAT (Break asunder) and have put through the suggestion in Thorsten Renk's Rouges guide to Sindarin word formation to get verb base _achata_

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( categories: NeoSindarin - translations | Sindarin )
a variation to a theme
Submitted by Atwe on Tue, 2007-06-19 10:04.

This stanza has intrigued me a lot, so after much pondering I have come up with a variant - I hope you do not mind. Here is how it goes:


Ennas in orc-hoth evyr ar egyl
vi dagor dhelu 'oeol den orthernir
na vedui; na Vauglir horn
i vrannon nynnir cuin
ar hennir dad i chîr orthala i chonin Edain

All comments welcome.

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Turin Line 18-22
Submitted by Andrew Higgins on Tue, 2007-06-19 12:53.

Atwe

Not at all - thanks for the suggestion - its a tricky one (and wait till you see the next chunk!!). I realize that as I do this I am not paying too much attention to the sound of the poetry or trying to recreate any of the Sindarian linnod (anthennath, Minlamad thent/esent or Linnod) - perhaps after I get a good chunk done I will revise based on the info in the article in Tolkien's Legendarium by Patrick Waynne and Carl H. More to come (but at work now so need get some opera tickets sold!). Thanks again.

Andy

See my latest musings on Tolkien's lanaguages and other related materials at http://wotanselvishmusings.blogspot.com

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sure
Submitted by Atwe on Tue, 2007-06-19 13:48.

Sure - and please do not take my installment as criticism - it's just that I could not resist the temptation to give it a go myself.

Greetings from the (currently) not so sunny Cambridge.

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comment
Submitted by Atwe on Mon, 2007-06-18 10:08.

**in roeg -- this will be idh roeg I think

*anethen as 'at last': erm, _Ai, na vedui, Dúnadan!_

*oranassen: I do not get this derivation - would you explain? Anyway, why not use simply the attested _horn_ "driven under compulsion, impelled" root KHOR- in Etym?

*achatanner: erm, I do not see how you achieve the meaning "pull down" from a root meaning "break asunder"

**in conin - will be i chonin

**anthalion: thalion is not an adjective so I do not think it can receive an intensifying prefix (it would be *aththalion anyway), the corresponding adj is _thala_, so it would be *aththala, but maybe sg like *orthalion "superior hero" would work also; or, as *aththala looks rather awkward, possibly _beren_ "bold" could be used, yielding *ammeren

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Turin 18-22
Submitted by Andrew Higgins on Mon, 2007-06-18 19:55.

Atwe!

Hanno le! With the _at last_ I feel like Gandalf at the Gates of Moria with the answer right in front of me (could be the effect of doing this while UK Big Brother is on)!! Will do a rethink on your suggestions.

Best, Andy

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*achata-
Submitted by Atwe on Tue, 2007-06-19 09:18.

Going back to *achatanner - I assume your model was the attested Q verb ascat- - donát you think S *achad-, *echedi is more likely? *achata- supposes an -a derivational suffix applied to the root, which though not impossible, maybe is less likely.

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BB úmea...
Submitted by Atwe on Tue, 2007-06-19 09:01.

OFF Ha! BB is one thing I have shunned form my life, it's boring... (Now give me a good CSI episode or an Attenborough program anytime...).
/OFF

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