>_fim_ 'clever' and _finthi_ 'notion' seem to show _-mth-_ > _-nth-_. But actually we do only know lenition in Gnomish (although a 'stop mutation' is mentioned). Otherwise one might argue with assimilation, but why not _*Timdanthathil_?


My theory now is that _tim_ might be from *tiñ(g)we and we might see -nt- in _tim_ + t-, as in _Tinturwin_, though that depends on whether that actually contains _tim_ or not.


>Typo for _dinwithli_.

I was wondering it it was *dinwithIL, but figured I didn't know enough about Gnomish phonology to guess whether -LL was possible.


>Mhm.. _go-_ is actually a prefix for nouns, but maybe we are allowed some poetical freedom here.
However, 'the genitive plural never becomes endingless' and with the examples from GL:12 I would expect _*go-segmarion_.


I wasn't aware of that (_go-_ for nouns). But if I use _*Segrimbar_ as you suggested, it would be singular and able to be endingless, I think.


So all that changes it to:


Ai Gailbriðir Timdanthathil [or Tintanthathil?],
brinidhrin nûmi sincliol
gon-ilbar aglar dinwithli!
No-lenchos annai-dairthiol
gon-alwenchangin Segrimbar,
Ithbôranimp, ni-lir hant fin
art sarofarn, sî liriol!


I'll have to think of some new ways to change the wording to fit a rhyme scheme again. I added _sî liriol_ in the last line and changed the translation of A Elbereth (perhaps alluding to _le linnon im Tinúviel_), so there should be no problem with changing the poem's meaning around a bit more in order to find words which rhyme. :)


On another note, how do you do single line breaks? I've only been able to do double or nothing!

>On another note, how do you do single line breaks? I've only been able to do double or nothing!

With the (br /) tag in the beginning of the line.

Well, I can't say I know much either, having only read the lexicons and grammars in PE11 and PE13 a couple times and looking at Thorsten's page and PHWynne's pronoun page. Though you apparently know more Anglo-Saxon than I do.

On another note, I'm wondering if somehow there would be a sort of dissimilation for _*timthanthathil_? I based the first TH off of the theory that a preceding M might cause nasal mutation, but soft might work as well, and _*timdanthathil_ might sound better. Thoughts?

Do we have other examples of m-t connection?

---

sí tere hyelle ar nullave cenilve

I honestly have no idea, and it'll take me a while to look, as there are no Gnomish wordlists online like there are for Quenya and Sindarin, and the Lexicons can only be searched by reading, not Ctrl+F. But I'll check for that.

I've found -mth- in _samtha_, but that is probably m + th rather than m + t and nasal mutation, and -tha is found on many other verbs, some after L and R, and liquid mutation doesn't seem to occur. Though there is the option that _tim_ is perhaps from TIN, and there are examples _tintiltha, tinwin, Timbridhil, Timfiril (tim-hiril), tinwithll, and Tinturwin_. Either the last shows a formation _mt > nt_, or the first element is somehow related to *tiñgw-, and a phonological change to -m(b) like with later Noldorin (IF it occurs in Goldogrin!) didn't occur in this medial instance. It seems to indicate that _Tinturwin_ corresponds with Qe. _Tinwetári_, so perhaps the latter is correct. The change of final -ñkw- to -mp- (_ninque vs. nimp_) might suggest -ñgw- changes to -mb- finally as well.

Edit: We find _im_ for Q. _inwe_. And _em_ for Q. _enwa_.

I re-read the GL, but that's what I found.

Right now I'm leaning towards _*tintanthathil_.

>Though there is the option that _tim_ is perhaps from TIN

Evidently so, I think, as TIN- is directly cited in GL:70 and Qenya has _tinwe_, _Tinwe Linto_.

>Either the last shows a formation _mt > nt_, or the first element is
>somehow related to *tiñgw-, and a phonological change to -m(b) like
>with later Noldorin (IF it occurs in Goldogrin!) didn't occur in this
>medial instance.

I had a different idea - _*tiñgw-_ would leave Q. _tinwe_ rather than _*tingwe_ unexplained, as well as Gn. _tinwin_ and _tinwithli_ - all without a medial _-g-_.
But a note to the entry _calw_ 'green shoot, sapling, sprout' (GL:25) mentions that _lw_ is pronounced _lb_ finally. Thus _-w_ becomes the labial stop _-b_; so maybe the same happened with _*tinw_ > _*tinb_ > _tim_, as well as _*ninkw_ > _*ninp_ > _nimp_, _*inw_ > _*inb_ > _im_?
This would explain why this change doesn't occur anywhere else - initial _cw-_ is for example allowed.

But in any case, _Tinturwin_ justifies _*Tintanthathil_, whether the former is directly from TIN- or from _tim_ by analogy. But where exactly is the agental suffix _-thil_ from, maybe one could use another?