PE 17:18, 148, 210 has Asfaloth from AS- warmth, esp. of the sun, sunlight = S ast "light or heat of the sun" and faloth, a large foamy wave = sunlit foam

Hey, if we continue at this pace we will run out of word-meaning to be hunted down shortly:)

inwisti, Asfaloth, two mysteries clarified within a day!!

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sí tere hyelle ar nullave cenilve

I too have seen this wonderful article; indeed, Aran and I were discussing a few names in it at LotRPlaza

I'll recopy the relevant parts of my posts here:

'At any rate, I just thought of yet another possibility for the derivation and meaning of Barangil; see TI:439. There is ÑGIL, but I don't think it would make any sense if it were derived from ÑGIL as "swarthy star", unless this is to be somehow be linked with Tolkien's interpretation of the Old English Sigelwara land in Exodus where lived "a race burned brown from the heat of the Sun". He derived Sigelwara from *sigelhearwa with sigel "sun, jewel" and hearwa from Latin carbo "soot". I remember reading that this had inspired his Balrogs, because he interpreted this to mean a race of fire-giants.

However, in Treason of Isengard we find Silharrows (clearly a homage to Sigelhearwa) as an alternate name for Harrowland, Sunharrowland, i.e. Haradwaith. So it is possible (indeed now I'm willing to say probable) that the intended meaning was indeed "swarthy star" or a combination of "dark, swarthy, *soot" and "star, *spark, *sun, *jewel" just as in Sigelhearwa, with that referring to the Men of Harad yet linking back to an obscure Anglo-Saxon verse just as he had done with éarendel from Crist.

and: [...]Personally, I would derive (Narghil > Nargil) from [...](S)KIL "divide"; [...] in the Etymologies there is cîl "cleft", which is related to a Q. word meaning "cleft, pass between hills, gorge".'

Tyrhael,
Having read 'Sigelwara Land' I have updated both entries with your input. I hope you agree with the way I've done it.

Aran, the way you've done the update for Barangil and Narghil is fine; if I spot any more words I have hunches for, I'll let you know, but I haven't found any — your article's quite thorough.

By the way I have got an idea that _Barangil_ may also be from _bara_ 'fiery, eager', older meaning 'hot, burning' (Etym:BARAS-) and _gil_ 'star' lenited to _-ngil_.

I think It's most probably the Qenya equivalent of N. _Tumladen_, the hidden valley of Gondolin (following in the entry).
For the derivation - at first the entry gives _latin(a)_ 'open, free, cleared (of land)', so a medial _-s-_ seems to hop in. Compare:
tī/tĭ gave ts, also tı from t + ı after long syllable gave ti > tsi (QL:23)
And:
tī/tĭ > tsi [...] *mati gave mate, but *matī gave matsi (PE14:70)
And very similar:
losta 'to bloom' (t-t in inflexion > st) (LOT) (VT42:18)
In this example it also has to do with stress, I believe (at least externally), _túmbolátsin_ being preferred instead of the awkward _*tumbólatin_.

This is actually not a very special development, compare e.g. E. _time_, Swedish _tid_, but German _Zeit_ [tsait] or E. _timber_ - G. _Zimmer_ 'chamber', E. _sit_ - G. _sitzen_ and so on..
In Japanese we meet the syllables _ta_, _te_, _to_, but _tu_ and _ti_ are realized as _tsu_ and _chi_.

Thanks for the prompt answer; it does make sense indeed.

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sí tere hyelle ar nullave cenilve

By the way, for the purposes of Neo-Quenya, one should consider using the plural _natsi_ from _nat_ (as attested in PE15:78) instead of _*nati_.

I use engwi anyway:)

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sí tere hyelle ar nullave cenilve

>Do not spare me, axe me with the obvious solution:)

It's because of the 'i'. ;-)

But why would _malthen_ appear umlauted? (Unless you mean it comes from sg like *maltinâ).

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sí tere hyelle ar nullave cenilve

>Unless you mean it comes from sg like *maltinâ

Yes, I think so. The regular change was _-inā_ > _-en_ by a-affection finally, but not medially, where we find such words as _Celebrimbor_ or _Celebrindal_ (despite _celebren_). So it's not _malthen_ > _melthin_, but _malthin-_ > _melthin-_.
Until some point this conception was always at change, see e.g. the river _Celebrin_ (RS:434) without a-affection or '_celebren_, _Gelebrendal_ early changed from _celebrin_, _Gelebrindal_' in Etym.

Yes but under SMAL we find _malthen_ (said to be analogical of _mallen_) and _Melthinorn_ (older _Mellinorn_) listed side-by-side... it is still not clear to me (I must have a block or sg:) why would compounding malthen with orn result in an umlaut.

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sí tere hyelle ar nullave cenilve

One takes the development _*maltinā_ > _*malthina_ > _malthen_, final 'a' affects the 'i' before it can affect the first 'a'.
The other is from _*Maltin-ornē_ without final _-a_ and the 'i' does it's job.

Thanks:)

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sí tere hyelle ar nullave cenilve

The word for 'world' in Finnish is maailma, a compound of maa 'earth, land' and ilma 'air' (also an archaic word for 'sky, heaven'). Could this have something to do with Menelkemen *'Sky-earth'? "In A Menelkemen is the only world that Ramer describes, the world of the story that he had read to the Notion Club, the inorganic, harmonious world of metal, stone and water, with the great waterfall." (SD:218). Just a notion...

I'll quickly reply to this first.

gyönyörű "beautiful"
emberi "human" (adj.)
"eshil külü" - I cannot account for this, does not resemble any Hungarian words
gyűrűcsillag "ring-planet"
énekel "sings" (3rd pers. pl.)

Prof. Ramer seems to confuse Hungarian with Turkish a little bit, we do not have that abundance of ü vowels...

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my blog: footprints

**emberü does not mean anything (maybe Ramer could speak Hungarian well but Tolkien got it wrong in the transcription process:-))

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my blog: footprints

Oh no, I'm so deeply disappointed... :-)

I just have a thought: maybe Tolkien - I mean Ramer - thought that on the analogy _gyönyör_ "joy, bliss" _gyönyörű_ "beautiful, wonderful" **emberü can be derived from _ember_ "man"; but I am actually not sure if _gyönyör_ in this case is not coming from _gyönyörű_ and not vice versa.

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my blog: footprints

Well, not exactly "nobody noticed" as I read WR about two weeks ago and pondered these forms; what puzzled me is the evident variability between the two plural markers.

I said that practically nobody has noticed these words. I was even aware that they have been mentioned by none other than Edouard Kloczko in message 471 of the Lambengolmor list (googling is useful).

I, too, noticed that the -i plural in a vowel-final word is peculiar. But if I am not mistaken, I remember having stumbled upon some instances of this elsewhere. I don't remember where, alas.

But we cannot be sure whether the singular of _#ómar_ and _#ómi_ has always been intended to be _óma_ (not _*óme_), can we?

I have a feeling that Tolkien here just experimented with the sound of the name. Had he settled on Ornóme I am sure he would have invented a nice explanation why it was #óme and not _óma_...

Could N�”- 'in, inside' immediately yield _nest_ *'entrance'?
Then the element _an-_ could mean 'long', shortened from _and_ (cf. _anfang_

..the following:
_+trôn_ 'a cross, crossing', _trantha-_ 'to cross, to mark with a cross', _tranc_ 'criss-cross, crossed' (GL:69) - but it sounds like a river-crossing, not a cataract


Furthermore:
_tarn_ 'gate'

Sarn Gebir here is still the name of the mountain range that later became Emyn Muil...

Frankly, for a time I played the thought that this #cain in formation is akin to the infamous _aen_, some old Noldorin passive voice maybe?

Erm, no, probably.

What you deduct is not implausible given the Q _canta_ "shaped".
*kantj�? - kaintj�? (umlaut) - *kaint - #kain

The predecessor to the name _Galeroc_ was _Narothal_; meaning perhaps "fiery valour" or something along these lines.

RS/351 has Narothal (Firefoot)

Firefoot! Of course!

My first thought is that it might be an Old English word (Gandalf is riding back from Rohan, his mount could be a Rohirric one - though I'm aware of Christopher Tolkien's note on the issue), and Merriam-Websters gives the etymology of _gale_ 'strong wind' as being OE _gal_, but I did not find OE _gal_ in any of the OE dictionaries available to me, therefore, this must be a dead end...

I doubt that a word derived from GAL- would render a form ending in or containing an _e_, as in _gale_...

I have compared the various names of horses with an Anglo-Saxon dictionary and it looks as if they mostly have quite strightforward names, either in English or in Anglo-Saxon:
Hasufel = Grey Coat, Graufell
Felaróf = Very valiant
Arod = Swift
Windfola= Windanimal
etc.
Galeroc is described as extremely swift an enduring. So it could be that this name is an English compound of: Gale (wind) and roc (mythological bird of great strength), *Windbird".
The Anglo-Saxon dictionary has the word "galere" for wizard, sorcerer, enchanter. So it could be that in a compound the final e dropps, the two r merge and Galeroc would mean the Wizard's horse.

Wouldn't be *Windbird a little far-fetched? I mean 'rúkh' is - as far as I know - of Perisan or Arab origin...


As for your theory on Anglo-Saxon compounds, well, I do have to check on compound behavior.


I think Windfola does rather mean Windfoal (AS 'fola' = E foal, G Fohlen)

Just by the way (an accidental discovering):
tarkil(di) = high-men = Elf-friends of Númenor; tar + χild = N torfir (VT46:17)
So it's much of a synonyme to _dúnadan_.

Some related fragments:


The very first greeting in pencil was:
_Ai Rimbedir!_
changed to:
_Ai Padathir, Padathir! Mai govannen!_
with translation: 'Hail Trotter, Trotter, well met.' (RS:194)


So _ai_ seems to be the cognate of Quenya _aiya_ 'hail', not just an interjection 'ah!', like it is frequently translated, copying from 'Sindarin - The Noble Tongue'. Besides, we already have _alae_ (UT:40) as interjection.


_Rimbedir_ is 'the one who marches a lot'

my first thought was that it's *pada-dir > padadhir, and maybe Tolkien found dh 'uncouth' so changed it to th
or it's _hîr_ "lord", but then I cannot explain the 't'

Interesting, I had no idea that these pieces of Noldorin existed..
Well, I cannot see anything which is really suitable for _dennad_ in Etym - maybe (N)DAN- in the sense of 'back again / you have returned'? It could be some phrase in the sense of the later _na vedui_.
Or perhaps PE13 gives something with DEN-/NDEN- which Tolkien didn't include in Etym?

But I do not have PE13... maybe Petri if he pops in some day...

_Du-finnion_ might probably mean 'dark-tressed one' (dû+finn-+ion)

Reminds me of _tengwesta_ 'a system or code of signs', _tengwestië_ 'Language'.
Maybe it's a plural form of _*inwistë_, which would mean 'the combined feelings of a person'?

But why plural, and if plural, what is the meaning of the sg? "A feeling"? A nice bet, btw.

The context is:
'As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change.'
'With such changes of 'mind-mood' or inwisti their lamatyaver might also change.'
Tolkien talks about changes of all the Eldar, so maybe he thought about the plural 'mind-moods'? Singular with final _-i_ would be very unusual, but not impossible of course.

_Indo_ is glossed 'mood' too, maybe it's the 'mood or sentiment in a particular situation or frame of time', but _inwisti_ with the suffix and in this context seems to be just 'the character' - it changes slowly in the course of time, while particular moods and feelings are naturally fluctuating from day to day.

With the help of PE17 this is one hunted down at last:
WIS- 'alter, change, shift', virya 'change, alternate, intr.', vista 'change, tr.', wirne and:
inwis (inwissi) 'change of mind, mood'
So it is indeed plural, but in the other quote from MR inwisti = 'changes of 'mind-mood'', not just 'mind-mood' and the word contains a new root rather than an abstract ending.

Thanks - there goes my theory that _inwisti_ was modelled on OE _modgethanc_...

(any indication in there what case would virya/vista govern? allative would be a logical choice, but who knows)

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sí tere hyelle ar nullave cenilve

>any indication in there what case would virya/vista govern?
There is no more information than I quoted; just some variants: WIS- 'change, alter(nate)' and walwiste from WAL- 'emotion, movement of feelings' showing the same suffx -te as MR #inwiste.
Do you mean allative in the sense of 'change into'?

Yes, that's what I meant.

Thanks, though.

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sí tere hyelle ar nullave cenilve

Oh, and in MR inwisti was changed from inwaldi - the latter seems indeed to mean 'mind-moods' with the mentioned WAL-.
EDIT: There is also GWAL- 'be stirred, excited, &c.', in-walme 'mood of mind, especially one of aroused attention & enthusiasm' (PE17:154)

It's a little bit strange, the lenition. Almost as if they did not understand the Q form to analyze it properly. Or simply phonetics prevailed over meaning.

Yes, this is a bit puzzling indeed.. But there is also the mountain _Fanuidhol_ 'cloudy head' with _dôl_ 'head' > _-dhol_, but the stem NDOL-.
If we assume that Tolkien changed NDOL- to *DOL-, maybe he was also thinking about the change NDIL- > *DIL-? And the 'n' in Quenya could be also explained by nasal fortification, as the ending _-kwâ_ > Q. _-inqua_ (but CT _-ipa_ > S. _-eb_).
..Just a faint guess.. Lenition ND- > -dh contradicts what Pengolodh states about Elvish word creation (derivation from CE each time)..
On the other hand, many '�‘oldo-Sindarin names' have no real meaning: _Fingon_ or _Fingolfin_ for example.